e gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! pizza!!!!! [ garth ] olaf's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! helium delivery. put it on my spark card! [ pop! ] [ garth ] why settle for less? great businesses deserve the most rewards! awesome!!! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? and a good saturday afternoon to you. i'm craig melvin. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. 24 days until election day. three days until the next presidential debate. and this, this is how many house seats and senate toss-up seats there are right now. coming up, we're going to talk about what the battle for the balance of power will mean for whoever wins the white house. topping our political headlines right now, though, paul ryan campaigning in the battleground state of ohio.

congressman ryan rallying voters in youngstown this morning. >> your share of the debt has gone up to $51,000 for every man, woman, and child in america. a 45% increase in the individual burden of debt to every single american. we're heading in the wrong direction. >> mitt romney is also in ohio today. we'll have a live update from the trail in just a moment. president obama, we should note, has no public events today. he is in virginia, though, but he is prepping for tuesday's debate. vice president joe biden has a pair of fundraisers in the northeast, one in connecticut, another in new york city. and also a new development concerning illinois congressman jesse jackson jr. sources now telling nbc news that the federal prosecutors along with the fbi have launched a criminal investigation into the democratic lawmaker's finances, including possible misuse of funds monitored by congress. more on all of these stories

throughout the next hour. first, though, right now mitt romney is heading to a rally in lebanon, ohio. that rally set to begin in about an hour. the event taking place at a restaurant actually owned by ohio senator rob portman's family. just wrapped up in portsmouth where he talked about the presidential debate. he also hammered the obama campaign for continuing the use of "sesame street" references. >> in times like this, what is he talking about? saving big bird. when i'm president, i'm going to help save the american family and get good jobs for every american. . >> nbc's peter alexander is on the bus with the romney campaign, traveling to that 5:45 event. he is live on the phone with us. pete, this second rally of the day in ohio, i imagine we are probably going to hear a great deal of what we heard at the first, no doubt. >> craig, you're exactly right. the religious trying to hammer

home these messages. as you heard in that rally a little earlier today with about 3500 fans, reporters in attendances, a series of attacks lines against china, accusing the president of basically failing to label china a currency manipulator for political purposes. these are big issues here in the state of ohio, where manufacturing is critical. just a short time ago we heard from mitt romney's running mate paul ryan saying we're going to bring america back to number one in manufacturing. that stuff resonates in a state like this. but more than anything else, what the effort is this weekend, it's the fifth consecutive day that mitt romney has in one form or another spent some time in the state of ohio as it shows just how critical they pugh view this state, with the 270 electoral votes. it's not impossible. but much more difficult to get there without this state. i spoke to a top adviser in the campaign this week who said to me if you go through the three most challenging states, three of the most critical states this done, florida, ohio, and

virginia, they think they have the best shot at florida, second best at ohio, this adviser items me, and number three is virginia. but clearly, this is a state that no republican has won the white house without it. no president has won the white house since john f. kennedy. >> that surprises me. you would think that second maybe virginia and then ohio. i guess that speaks to how confident the campaign has become with with regards to the buckeye state. real quickly, what is this i hear about shifting resources from pennsylvania to ohio? what can you tell me about that? >> yeah, there was some conversations. and we have reached out to the campaign about that. i think they brought the number that i was given was just a matter of individuals from pennsylvania to here to really help get out the vote in the state. obviously it was earlier this past week that voter registration ended. they wanted to make sure they got as many people they believe will be in the republican column, signed up, registered to vote in time. that's as they describe it to us, all that really mattered in

that regards. by no means do they say they have given up on pennsylvania. it's very clear our focus has been ohio. >> nbc's peter alexander on the bus with the romney campaign, headed to the bustling metropolis of lebanon, ohio. thank you, good sir. >> thank you. >> as the election draws near, there is increasing emphasis on the key battleground states. we were just in ohio. we have talked about florida. we talked about north carolina. but we can't forget virginia. the race there a virtual tie at this point. the latest nbc news marist poll shows mitt romney with 48% of the vote. president obama 47%. that's likely voters in the commonwealth. that's a shift from last week hen the president had 48% and governor romney had 46%. those numbers are both well within the poll's margin of error. so we wanted to find out who is really ahead in virginia. i'm joined by brian moran, chairman of the democratic party of virginia. also cory stewart, the chairman of the prince william board of

county supervisors, also a republican candidate for lieutenant governor there. let's start off, gentlemen, with listening to some sound from undecided voters in virginia. this is after the vice presidential debate on thursday. take a listen. >> i think the -- what was it, 23 million people are unemployed. i think that that's a big statistic, especially for young grads, especially young college grads. >> both have packages to create jobs. however, the jobs that are going to be created by president obama and vice president joe biden are going to be ones that are immediate jobs. >> all right, cory, let's start there. will president obama actually be able to create more jobs in virginia immediately if he is reelected? >> well, the fact of the matter is people are really nervous about the economy. and there is just no confidence in the obama and the administration to create jobs. they haven't been able to do it in the past four years. and people are nervous about their economic security. and ultimately, that's going to cost the administration of virginia. i know it's going to cost him

the election in prince william county and the other key suburb areas outside of washington. >> you know, i'm glad you mentioned that. because a lot of folks who aren't familiar with the geography of virginia, essentially, you've got two virginias. you've got fairfax county, you've got arlington, you've got alexandria, and then you've got the rest of virginia. what a lot of folks like to call the real virginia with the exception of richmond, with the exception of norfolk. how are those two areas, brian, how are they distinctly different? >> well, i'm in hampton roads today. we're registers voters with visiting college campuses throughout the weekend because our voter registration deadline is close of business on monday, october 15th. so we are still in the mode of registering voters. but let's get back to your original question. you asked corey how will the romney/ryan plan help job creation. he didn't answer it. he attacked the obama administration. that's what we see time and time again by the radical romney plan is that they have no specifics. the fact of the matter is over

the last 31 months, we've had private sector job growth, created 5.1 million new jobs. and as of last friday, we had the lowest unemployment rate we've enjoyed in the last four years. does more need to happen? of course it does. but that's why the president is going to win virginia, because he is talking about growing the middle class out and talking about job creation and strengthening our economy in ways that will invest for the future. he has a plan. the other side doesn't. it's resonating in virginia. and we're going to make history again in virginia and deliver to it barack obama. >> corey, the thinking was at the beginning of this campaign, the thinking was that the governor would be able to essentially run on the economy, that the unemployment numbers and that people's perceptions of the economy, that they were going to be in such shambles that that was going to be the essential argument for governor romney. that has not turned out to be the case. we're seeing in some polling now that a lot of folks are a lot more optimistic now than they were just one or two months ago about the shape of this economy. if that trend continues, what

does that mean for the romney campaign's message in virginia? >> well, i think the romney campaign is correct to focus on the economy. because if brian moran and the other representatives of the obama campaign think that there is a record of success here, that people are positive about the economy, they are mightily out of touch with the average american, and certainly the average virginian. people are concerned about the unemployment rate. they're concerned about their own jobs or their spouse's jobs or underemployment. people are really worried about that. and on top of this is up to 200,000 defense-related jobs that will be lost in virginia if sequestration, president obama's plan to lay off defense workers takes hold. we're very worried about that. >> that's not just president obama's plan to lay -- that was a plan that was reached by both parties. so let's be fair and let's be honest. >> well, and it was -- >> go ahead, brian. >> it was a result of the republicans -- it was a result of the republicans holding the debt ceiling hostage.

and that's why they entered this plan. this was a scheme developed by eric cantor from virginia. but let's talk about the jobs that corey criticizes here. if they were so concerned about the average virginian, then they wouldn't be sacrificing defense spending, education like pell grants for the expense of providing the very wealthy additional tax cuts. 120,000 families throughout the country averaging $8 million a year will receive tax cuts from the romney plan. that is not good for the average virginian. the average virginian wants to send their kid to school here in virginia like odu campus, where i was just at. they need pell grants. and the romney/ryan plan will gut the pell grants to the expense of let's give the wealthy additional tax cuts. the virginians are rejecting the double down on trickle-down economics. >> voter registration deadline on monday.

how important is turnout going to be? is it going to come down in virginia at least to at least turning out the base? >> it's all going to be -- >> it won't be about the base. >> it will be. >> brian, go ahead. >> it's going to be about the suburbs of washington, d.c. prince william, loudoun counties and hampden roads. that's where we're going to be watching the election returns, the suburbs of washington and hampden roads. >> and you both agree on that, right, brian? it's all going to come down to northern virginia. >> but it's -- i'm so proud to be a member of a party that believes in full voter participation. it's not the democratic party that imposes unnecessary barriers to people voting. we want everyone to get out and vote. democrats and republicans, get out and vote. three out of four virginians voted in 2008. we made history for the first time in 44 years. thank you. >> we're going to leave it right there. you guys should have your own show, the both of you. >> it's a good idea. >> brian moran, corey stewart,

both in virginia. thank you both so much for your perspectives. i do appreciate you. >> thank you. meanwhile, back to ohio. high stakes ohio. the obama campaign urging the supreme court to let stand lower court rulings that allow in person early voting in the three days before election day. as you just heard here a few moments ago before the last segment, ohio started in-person voting last tuesday with plans to cut it off on november 2nd. democrats have been fighting to restore it right up to election eve. with the election just three weeks away, the supreme court is expected to decide soon whether to hear an appeal of the lower court rulings. it's a lot to sift to, but we wanted to bring in someone from columbus to help us break down what is at stake here. this is daniel takaji, law professor and election law expert at ohio state university. thank you so much for being with me this afternoon, sir. >> well, thank you for having me. >> early voting of course has become a political battleground in and of itself.

democrats see it as an edge because lower income people are oftentimes more likely to work odd hours. republicans say it's vulnerable to fraud. what is at play in the court's decision? >> well, what is in play in the decision from the sixth circuit, which the state of ohio is seeking to appeal to the supreme court is whether we will have early voting in ohio the saturday, sunday, and monday before the election. and this is potentially huge. in 2008, the obama campaign was very successful in getting its voters out during the early voting period, especially those last days. and that many people suspect why our republican secretary of state wants to shut down early voting those last three days. >> especially on sunday, a lot of folks who may not be familiar. i was just there a couple of

weeks ago, full disclosure, souls to the polls is quite the popular program. in many a black church in the buckeye state. what would the ruling, what could it potentially mean for that program? >> yeah, i think this is an important aspect of the court's decision that many people are worried that african-americans would be negatively affected by the state's intention to close down early voting the weekend before the election because especially african-american churches have in many places adopted programs designed to encourage people to go to the polls and fulfill their civic obligations after fulfilling their spiritual ones. and there is evidence from florida in particular that african-americans are more likely to early vote during the weekends, and especially on sunday. so there is no question that

african-american voters, and whether they will be allowed to vote the weekend before the election is a critical part of what the obama campaign, on the other hand, and our republican secretary of state on the other are fighting over. >> daniel tokaji, election expert in ohio, thank you so much, sir. i do appreciate your time. >> thank you for having me. coming up, mitt romney hammering the white house on its handling of the attack in libya. but is that a way to win over undecided voters? we'll talk about that with a brain trust. first, though, what is a fact? we'll look at the science of fact checking. we'll also explore the role of truth in this hyper partisan election, next. endless shrimp is our most popular promotion

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the truth is out there, but maybe not so much on the campaign trail. accusations of untruths have been flying from both sides during this campaign. one of the latest from thursday night's vice presidential debate. listen to vice president biden's reaction to congressman ryan's criticism of the administration's middle east policy. >> when we look weak, our adversaries are much more likely to attack us. >> with all do respect, that's a bunch of mullarkey. >> why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is true. >> malarkey or truth? "time" magazine tried to get to the bottom. who is telling the truth? the fact wars. joining me now, adam sorenson, associate editor at time, and professor rifeler, who cowrote a

book on the falsehoods in politics we should note here. adam, let me start with you. a simple question here. are the nominees and their campaigns being straight with the voters? >> no. i think that's a pretty easy question. they twist the truth. sometimes it's outright lies, but sometimes they're just saying things that seem true, but they're very misleading. they take some facts and stretch them to the breaking point, make it sound like something is happening, it's really not. so no, they're not being straight with voters circumstances there one candidate that is being less true than the other, or are they both for the most part fudging different numbers and overstating and exaggerating for a fact? >> one of the things we found when looking at this for our piece, it's really difficult to quantify exactly who is misleading more. you could look at, you know, how many times fact checkers have called them out on things, but that doesn't really get at, you know, how misleading is what they're saying. so we're not really comfortable saying one person lies more just

because it's a really difficult thing to say. we'd like to be able to be more concrete about it. >> yeah. >> but i think it's easier just to say here is how they're being misleading and try to set the facts straight. >> jason, you studied the effect of political falsehoods, the effect on voters. do questionable statements by politicians, how much do they contribute to this atmosphere of mistrust? >> well, they're certainly not helpful. and they do add to mistrust. one of the underlying problems that some of my research with brendan shows when we try to take the opportunity to correct false claims that are out there, often the attempts at correction are not effective. and to the people that the corrections are most aimed at, the people most likely to hold misperceptions, in fact, the corrections can actually make people believe that which is

wrong each more strongly. so correcting can have a counterproductive effect, or backfire effect, as we call it in our research. >> which is what we're starting to see a lot of in this season in particular. adam, we talked about this earlier on this show, one of the things that has always struck me is just the attention span of the electorate. and if you hear something on thursday that is blatantly false, that has been demonstrated by journalists on either side of the spectrum, just flat-out wrong, do voters remember that, or it is one of the things that two days later, it's eh. >> i think some of them remember it. actually, it's really -- it may be in fact the voters who are paying the most attention who are the real problems here, people who are very involved in politics, who feel very strongly about it, have very strong partisan emotions. when they hear these things, it's not that they don't remember them, they follow it closely, it's just that they don't believe it. they are so tied up with their political opinion that they just hear what they want to hear.

>> jason, before i let you get out of here, how much of truth, and the air quotes are important here, how much of truth can be determined by your preexisting notions with regard to politics? if you already believe this can candidate is your guy and this candidate is not your guy, then what then becomes truth? >> well, when you are a strong partisan and strongly attached to one candidate or the other, that you're going to be extremely likely to believe what your candidate says and be extremely likely to not believe what the other candidate says. it's incredibly difficult. and people -- the truth that they see is highly tied up with what their partisan beliefs are. and people who pay attention to politics, people who like politics, people who care about politics. it's much even more difficult for them to be able to say that

their guy might be wrong or be able to correct their misperception because it is in fact really important to them. nobody likes to say something that is really important to me, oh, all of the sudden you know what? i've been wrong about that. that's not true. people aren't terribly good for that. adam sorensen from "time" magazine, jason rifeler, georgia state university, thanks for spending some time with us on this saturday afternoon. >> thank you for having us. coming up, the biden backlash. conservatives ganging up on the vice president for his debate performance. was it all part of his plan, or was he just plain rude? we'll talk about that. and speaking of rude, a democratic congressman and a bitter race come pretty close to trading blows. now an apology, a rare apology in contemporary politics. you're watching msnbc. with the spark cash card from capital one, sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!! so that's ten security gators, right?

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a debate that nearly came to blows. maybe uses as fodder for campaign ads. that kicks off our trail mix.

>> you want to get into this? >> that was california's brad sherman on thursday night grabbing opponent howard berman during a feisty debate. congressman berman's campaign manager now telling the hill they are not ruling out using that incident in campaign advertising. congressman sherman, meanwhile, has since said that he regretted his actions. is senator rand paul already ramping up for a presidential run in 2016? paul reportedly extending outside kentucky, going national with tv ads in ohio, west virginia, and florida. the ads paid for by his political action committee, rand pac. hammer democratic senate candidates over foreign aid. and the massachusetts

nail-biter. the latest polls have turned the senate race in the bay state upside down. can elizabeth warren pull off an upset? and if you thought there might be a bit more calm and cooperation in washington after the election, think again. why we are likely to see even fewer moderates in congress next year. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

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[ dog barking ] ♪ [ female announcer ] life is full of little tests, but your basic paper towel can handle them. especially if that towel is bounty basic. the towel that's durable and scrubbable. in this lab demo, bounty basic is stronger than the leading bargain brand. everyday life. bring it with bounty basic. affordably priced. tested by everyday life. and try bounty napkins. good saturday. i'm craig melvin. here is a look at some of the top stories making news right now. the cdc has confirmed a 15th death tied to the meningitis outbreak that has swept this country. 198 cases of meningitis have now been confirmed. on friday lawmakers in washington expanded their investigation into the outbreak, which has now spread to 13

states and is tied to a massachusetts pharmacy. the space shuttle "endeavour" is nearing its final destination in southern los angeles today. the shuttle was towed across the 405 freeway last night. it is currently making its way through the streets of los angeles. "endeavour" expected to complete its 12-mile journey some time tonight when it reaches its retirement home, also known as the california science center. now to the battle over control of congress, and why the landscape may be primed for a shift. remember, democrats hold the senate 51-47 seats with two independents who booth caucus with the democrats that means republicans need to gain just four seats to take the majority there. there is some real toss-ups as well. one high profile example massachusetts, where democrats had been gaining in confidence about winning back ted kennedy's old senate seat. but the latest wbur poll there

now gives republican senator scott brown a three-point lead over elizabeth warren. with me now cnbc's washington reporter eamon javers and mike vaquera. reunited. it feels so good. >> you want to do? >> we're doing the berman thing. >> let me start with you. the latest nbc news analysis puts ten senate races in play. real clear politics had 11 races in play. the latest cook political report has the same. what is your sense of the state of play in the senate? is the balance of power really up for grabs? >> well, it's definitely up for grabs, absolutely, when you have that many toss-ups. anything can happen on election day. and obviously as we're seeing the presidential race so volatile, a lot of these senate races will be volatile too. i think most experts in washington sort of expect a status quo. so the betting man at least in official d.c. right now is betting on the senate's staying

democratic right now. but like i said, anything can happen. and you've got to watch scott brown and some of these other states where something very, very interesting at the last minute could happen, as all these polls are really tightening up right now. >> vic you cover the white house. it has been accusing the gop-held house of blocking its agenda of getting in the way, as it says. right now a cook report has 25 seats as toss-ups in the house. 184 democratic, or lean deem. 226 in the republican. >> that's important because the exact same numbers that democrats would need to take over the house. and you got to say, it's very unlikely at this point. you know, craig, you look at 2006 and 2008, wave elections of the sort. you really don't see that that often, am i right? >> that's absolutely right. >> and in 2010, when republicans took back the house of representatives, it was a tsunami that made those waves look like ripples down at the lincoln memorial reflecting pool. for that to happen four cycles

in a row would be extremely rare. house democrats are counting on a lot of redistricting in the wake of the census, the 2010 census maybe gave them a few seats in texas. but we're talking about an eight-seat democratic swing on a good night. and back on the senate, you got to take into account the coattail factor for president obama as well. wisconsin, virginia. if he does well in virginia, tim kaine does well. if he does well in wisconsin, then tammy baldwin does well over tommy thompson. >> i want to get both of your take over something. big picture here. the "new york times" reporting this week on an exodus of moderates from congress. the headline, weighing the effect of an exit of centrists that was the headline. and in the article, quote, congressional redistricting, retirements of fed up lawmakers, and campaign spending by special interests is pushing out moderate members of both parties, leaving a shrinking core of consensus builders. isn't there already a lot of gridlock on the hill? and won't all of this just make

it considerably worse, eamon? >> look, i think that we're actually at the tail end of kind of a generation long shift toward real polarization in the house of representatives in particular because of all this gerrymandering that we have seen. used to have southern democrats, and they over the past generation have been almost totally wiped out. so you're seeing ideological divides among the districts. and then the members themselves take part in the gerrymandering. >> sure. >> to make sure that each of the districts is very, very safe. they don't want to fight a battle every two years. so they can, they sort out the republican voters from the democratic voters. everybody can relax. but the battle lines get very, very hardened. and then you get people elected to those districts who have no interest in compromising or incentive to do it. >> i don't think you can downplay the role of money, the increasing role of money, especially after the citizens united decision at the supreme court. because members have to go home. every week and every recess and raise money. this is basically a full-time job now. and you don't raise money from moderates, people are only casually interested in elections.

>> exactly. >> you raise money from the people who are most strident on your behalf, the core, the base. those are the people that you have to appeal to in order to raise the money in order to run the race. >> there is no centrist superpac. >> that's right. moderation is not a wallet opener. >> vic, eamon, we have been so pleased with this segment, we would like to continue to do this every weekend. we'll get you some music. we'll do it up really nicely. thank you, both. appreciate your time. >> thanks a lot. appreciate it. in thursday's debate, vice president biden more than once tried to tie an unpopular congress to the gop ticket. take a listen. >> that's how you get things done. you work with congress. look. let me say hit the way -- >> that coming from the republican congress, working bipartisanly? 7% rating? >> mitt romney -- >> a recent cbs/"new york times" poll puts disapproval of

congress an eye-popping 75%. let's go ahead and bring in today's brain trust. syndicated columnist bob franken, and the "washington post's" jennifer rubin, also a contributor to cnbc's "kudlow report." good saturday afternoon to all of you. kevin, i want to start with you. you're here in the studio with me. you wrote a piece. it's titled why vote. >> yeah. >> my ap government politics teach worry have a fit with this one. but in the article you say in part, quote, for more than a generation, this has been the central truth of american politics. how you cast your vote has almost no relation to what any candidate actually intends to do. do you truly believe that no americans can no longer count on the men and women they vote for to live up to their campaign promise? >> i do. there is a tremendous disconnect from the people at the head of the parties and the people we put into office, and a lot of their base. more so in the democratic party. but also even if you're a republican and you voted for say

limited government under george bush, and you voted against nation building, as he kept railing against, the clintons were doing nation building in haiti and all. what did you get? you got an attempt -- >> and the prescription drug benefit as well. >> right. a huge prescription drug benefit. and attempt to make a model laissez-faire estate out of iraq. the craziest exercise in nation building you have ever seen. >> campaign promises very what our elected officials deliver in office. it is more about the reality of our elections process or is it also about what we're just talking about, the partnership on capitol hill? >> well, i think what it really is about is the fact that we've had a dumbing down of the citizenry. and to be very blunt about it, i think among the institutions that can be blamed would be us. television news, that somehow along the way, the market research people came in there and said you can completely discuss any issue in a ten-second sound bite. once you hear that ten-second

sound bite you will understand all the complexities of national security or health care or the economic situation. and then you have the political consultants who are after all just marketing people who come in there, and they look for the hot buttons to push with no relationship whatever to all the complexities that go into fulfilling these promises. and you have an impossibility by the time somebody is elected. >> jennifer, what say you? we should note here jennifer at the "washington post"? >> yes. i think there are two points. one is that politicians have been disappointing voters for decades, for centuries. so that's nothing new. secondly, you just had a segment in which you talked about the lack of compromise. each if the base elects someone, don't we want them to get their, exercise their good judgment and make some decisions? i'm sure democrats were very happy that george bush let down his conservative base by going ahead with the medicare appointee. so on the one hand, yes we want them to do what we ask them to.

on the other hand, we do have them to use good judgment and compromise. the last point is of course your vote matters. you're going to get a different presidency, a different supreme court, a different tax code if you vote for mitt romney or barack obama. the idea that they're all bad, they're all going to disappoint you, i don't buy into that political nihilism. >> yes you should get out there and vote. but i think we do have to question how easily the promises are broken. and jennifer raised a good point. yes, you do want these people to compromise. you do want them to adjust to situations. >> but they never do. >> they have at times. but it's a different thing from that to simply get in. barack obama ran against the whole, you know, old establishment of the democratic party. and then he brought back in the same advisers, immediately. this was not a good-faith effort. >> really quickly. >> and i think another difficulty, and that is that people are disgusted with the whole lot of them. i mean there are a lot of people who would have to hate to choose

really between barack obama and mitt romney. i think one answer is we need to have vote no on the ballot. >> sit tight, guys. got to take a quick break here. we're going to tell you why dick cheney says he was disturbed by the vice presidential debate. and speaking of debates, president obama, mitt romney hunkering down ahead of tuesday's rematch. the brain trust panel will weigh in on what each of them must do. have i so enjoyed this conversation. i hope i save some time for the rest.

so more than one critic has taken issue with the vice president's repeated interruption of paul ryan at the vp debate. the blaze counted 85 interruptions. here are just a few. >> when we equivocate on our values, when we show that we're cutting our own defense. >> our analysts are --

>> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> that's how it's going all around america. look, you don't -- >> that's not how it's going down. >> it's a two-minute answer, please. >> let's bring back the brain trust, bob franken, kevin baker, jennifer rubin. jennifer, the piece in the "washington post," you brother that biden lost his cool. you called it a rude-a-thon and said that the sheer jerkiness of the man certainly comes through. you went on to say that biden's behavior went on to show the contempt that he has for biden and ryan. couldn't this have been a strategy on the vice president's part? >> well, if it was, it wasn't executed very well. the most of the conversation the day after was whether he turned off moderates, whether he had turned off women, whether his antics detracted from actually the substance of what he was saying. and i think he went too far. i think every one of us know you have to be likable if you're going to get your message across. and it's really not becoming i

think of a sitting vice president, even though vice presidents traditionally have this attack dog demeanor. he didn't behave that way with sarah palin. you didn't see either one of the candidates in the presidential debate behave that way. i think it really lost him probably more than it gained him. it did pump up his base, but right now i think the president has bigger problems than just his base. >> her last point is what i want to pick up with you, bob. wasn't that debate just about firing up the base? wasn't it just to throw some red meat out there to democrats who were licking their wounds from denver? >> well, i think that that's correct. i think that what the debate was about from joe biden's point of view was he was supposed to in fact say make the message, deliver the message that not everybody is asleep here. we're going to have to see if barack obama is going to be continue that message when encounters mitt romney when we get to the tuesday debate, the

hostility. >> that's good. >> i think the motto of the modern republican party should be we can dish it out, but we can't take it. these guys have been doing this sort of thing for decades, and now they finally get a sharp elbow in return and they cry to the refs. >> i think we loved it because it really didn't come across that well. >> that's the spin, sure. >> i don't think that's the spin. i think that's the reality. that's why they made a loop of his be mad behavior. >> but you see how conditioned is to this kind of interruption. what we're doing right now. >> i didn't interrupt you, bob. >> i totally did. >> but in terms of firing up the base, i think all of these debates are doing is convincing the already convinced. >> right. >> i really think that's what this is all about. >> and i think your last point is probably quite salient. here is the thing, jennifer rubin. people who thought that joe biden was kind of a rude guy before the debate, they still think. that reinforced it. do you really think that the 17 undecided voters left in iowa or

ohio who saw that debate and went that joe biden, man, he sure is mean. i'm not voting for him. >> it probably didn't have a great impact. actually, i do think the debates have mattered an awful lot. "new york times" today nate silver, hardly a conservative reporting that really the race has taken a very different trajectory. that bounce after the first debate is continuing on. there has been about a four or five-point shift in the race following that debate. i don't think like some people on the right that that is permanent or that that is a lock. but the race changed fundamentally after that debate. and the president's job next tuesday is see if he can change it back. >> kevin, what does the president to v to do on tuesday to do that? >> the president has to decide if he still wants to be president. i mean that bizarre performance. >> he needs the fire in the belly. >> that bizarre performance signalled to somebody he is not sure if he wants to stay in the office. i don't know what that is about. but he had better decide he wants to stay in office if he is going to remain there. >> bob, how does he do that? >> well, first of all, he shows up. second of all, he really has to

forget that he is professor obama, which is what he seems to be at heart above all this rudeness, as jen likes to call it. he has to be able to mix it up. there are questions about the assertions made by mitt romney, to put it mildly. and he needs to be able to raise him. whether he uses the same tactic as joe biden, that probably is not going to happen, because he also has to look presidential. but he does have to go toe to toe with mitt romney. because the last time around, romney got away with pretty much anything he wanted to get away. >> we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, jennifer, i'm going to start with you to be polite. when we come back, i want to get your headline for the day after the debate. what will we be talking about? stay with us, folks. don't go anywhere. msnbc, the place for politics.

mitt romney's next campaign event kicks off in less than an hour in ohio. tomorrow both mitt romney and president obama will be hunkered down, prepping for the next presidential debate. tuesday town hall format.

i want to bring the brain trust in for a few more minutes if we can. jennifer rubin, the "washington post" there is bob, there is kevin. jennifer, i want to start with you. what more will we be talking about the morning after the debate? >> i'll give you a "new york post" kind of headline. 'bama bashed on benghazi. >> that's good. >> libya is becoming an issue, and joe biden actually opened up a couple of issues for him. you a drip, drip, drip now every day from "newsweek," from "new york times." a lot of finger-pointing going on between the state, between the intelligence community, the white house. i think the president is going to have to do some explaining. and i think mitt romney is probably going to begin to make this one of his top issues. >> kevin? >> the latest faked up scandal by the republicans, the nonscandal in benghazi. the headline is going to be signs of life, because i think president obama will show some. and at least try to contest that debate. i hope so. >> you think he is going to come out on fire? are we talking biden fire? >> i think he'll have biden type

fire. >> okay. >> but i think he will at least try to contest some of the points that romney puts across, and try to define just who romney is. we have the many different faces he puts out there every election. >> so kevin has come up with a new concept of obama fire. it will be a first if we see it. i think the headline with all to discuss the voters will have the day after election, hey, folks, it's time to celebrate. less than three weeks to go when this is over. >> bob franken, i enjoy you so. brain trust on this saturday, bob franken, kevin baker, jennifer rubin. many thanks to all thee of you. and thanks to you at home as well for spending some of your saturday with us. we enjoyed it so much. we've decided that we will be back here again tomorrow afternoon. we'll start it at 3:00 eastern, right after "meet the press," of course, where moderator david gregory will be talking politics with a panel of experts. and then he'll spend some time

talking to stephen colbert. it should be quite the lively discussion, and it's all here on msnbc, the place for politics. have yourself a fantastic saturday afternoon, what is left of it. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you make 70,000 trades a second... ♪ reach one customer at a time? ♪ or help doctors turn billions of bytes of shared information... ♪ into a fifth anniversary of remission? ♪ whatever your business challenge, dell has the technology and services to help you solve it.

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